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From: igor@sai.msu.ru
Subject: EPIC CCD numbering
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5 followups: 1 2 3 4 5

Private message: yes  no

Notes:

Notification:


Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:25:31 GMT
From: igor@sai.msu.ru
To: xmmhelp@xmm.vilspa.esa.es
CC: igor@sai.msu.ru
Subject: EPIC CCD numbering
Full_Name: Igor Antokhin
Submission from: (NULL) (195.208.220.9)


Dear Sir/Madam,

to use the STDGTI extensions of the EPIC event lists for a given source, I need
to know the number of the CCD on which the source is located. To identify these
numbers, I use the Users' Handbook, version 2.2. In its sections 3.3.1.1 and
3.3.1.2 the EPIC MOS and PN chip geometries are shown. However, when I create a
MOS1 image in the detector coordinates using my own data, the CCDs are oriented
differently compared to the MOS1 image in the UHB. The UHB MOS1 image is flipped
vertically relative to my MOS1 DET image.

The first thought which comes to one's mind is that the UHB MOS1 CCD numbers are
ok but the UHB MOS1 image must be flipped vertically. However, this causes
another problem: in this case, the CCD numbers will increase in the clockwise
direction. At the same time, it seems that the convention is to number the CCDs
counter-clockwise. I am lost. Please clarify this.

The MOS2 UHB image is consistent with my MOS2 DET image created with my own
data. As for PN, it is impossible to say if the CCD numbers in the UHB PN image
are correct or not as this image is symmetrical with even CCD gaps etc. It might
be ok, but the problem with the MOS1 CCD numbering casts some doubts about the
PN numbering as well. I would like to ask you to definitely confirm whether the
PN CCD numbering according to the UHB PN image in section 3.3.1.2 is correct,
including the shown orientation of the detx, dety axes.

Note that the real-world PN images are full of bad CCD columns, the pattern of
these columns is constant and can be easily used to identify the CCDs. Ideally
the UHB should contain this actual PN image to avoid any confusion.

Thank you for your help,
Igor Antokhin


Reply 1

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From: Maria Santos-Lleo <xmmhelp@xmm.vilspa.esa.es>
To: igor@sai.msu.ru
Subject: Re: EPIC CCD numbering (PR#17583)
Date: Tue Apr 19 16:16:23 2005
Dear Igor, 

The three Users' Handbook figures that you mention are correct. 

You should note that these figures are as shown by SAS, when 
X and Y coordinates are selected, this is sky coordinates, with 
the North at the top and the East to the right. The two MOS 
figures are for a position angle of 0 deg. The pn figure is 
for a position angle of 90 deg

The orientation of the detector coordinates axis is also 
shown in the figures and could help you to understand how to
flip and rotate a figure in one coordinate system to obtain
the other, but I think that if you want to compare figures
the best is that you generate your figures in sky coordinates
with SAS (X,Y) and then take into account the PA angle 
of the observation that would imply a rotation, no flipping

Hope this helps and thanks for your note. We are going to 
update the UHB figure captions to make this point more clear 
in the next UHB version

With best regards

Maria Santos-Lleo, 
XMM-Newton SOC 
User Support Group


Followup 1

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:15:39 +0400 (MSD)
From: Igor Antokhin <igor@sai.msu.ru>
Subject: Re: EPIC CCD numbering (PR#17583)
To: Maria Santos-Lleo <xmmhelp@xmm.vilspa.esa.es>
Dear Maria,

thanks for your answer and sorry, you confuse me even more. What you say 
is that I have to use a MOS1 image in X,Y coordinates and rotate it to 
align with the MOS1 image shown in the users' handbook. OK. But you do 
show the DEX, DETY axes on that UHB image. Thus, if I create a MOS1 image 
in the detector coordinates, and align these coordinates as in your UHB 
MOS1 image, I should see the same chip geometry as in your image. This is 
not true. I attach two MOS1 images to this message:

m1img100_gti.fits.gz - a MOS1 image, binning 100, in XY coordinates.
m1img100_gti_det.fits.gz - same image, in the detector coordinates.

In the second image the detx axis goes from left to right, the dety 
image goes from bottom to top, so the image should look exactly like your 
UHB image. This is not true.

Please clarify...

Thanks for your help,
Igor

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Maria Santos-Lleo wrote:

> Dear Igor,
>
> The three Users' Handbook figures that you mention are correct.
>
> You should note that these figures are as shown by SAS, when
> X and Y coordinates are selected, this is sky coordinates, with
> the North at the top and the East to the right. The two MOS
> figures are for a position angle of 0 deg. The pn figure is
> for a position angle of 90 deg
>
> The orientation of the detector coordinates axis is also
> shown in the figures and could help you to understand how to
> flip and rotate a figure in one coordinate system to obtain
> the other, but I think that if you want to compare figures
> the best is that you generate your figures in sky coordinates
> with SAS (X,Y) and then take into account the PA angle
> of the observation that would imply a rotation, no flipping
>
> Hope this helps and thanks for your note. We are going to
> update the UHB figure captions to make this point more clear
> in the next UHB version
>
> With best regards
>
> Maria Santos-Lleo,
> XMM-Newton SOC
> User Support Group
>



Followup 2

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:23:11 +0400 (MSD)
From: Igor Antokhin <igor@sai.msu.ru>
Subject: Re: EPIC CCD numbering (PR#17583)
To: Maria Santos-Lleo <xmmhelp@xmm.vilspa.esa.es>
  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

---792524324-1824620929-1113981791=:21376
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Sorry I forgot to attach the files...

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Followup 3

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:49:15 +0400 (MSD)
From: Igor Antokhin <igor@sai.msu.ru>
Subject: Re: EPIC CCD numbering (PR#17583)
To: Maria Santos-Lleo <xmmhelp@xmm.vilspa.esa.es>
Dear Maria,

from your answers and my images it probably follows that the MOS1 CCD 
numbers in the UHB MOS1 image are correct but the orientation of the DETY 
axis is wrong - it should point down not up.

As I said in my first message, the UHB MOS2 CCD numbering/det axes are ok. 
They are consistent with MOS2 XY and DET images I create with my data. 
However, I cannot verify this for PN, as the UHB PN image is symmetrical. 
Subjectively, it is much easier for me to use a DET PN image to get the 
CCD numbers, than to account for the positional angle of my XY PN 
image... However I must be sure that the orientation of the DETX, DETY 
axes in the UHB PN image is correct. Please confirm.

Thanks,
Igor



Followup 4

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:15:55 +0400 (MSD)
From: Igor Antokhin <igor@sai.msu.ru>
Subject: Re: EPIC CCD numbering (PR#17583)
To: Maria Santos-Lleo <xmmhelp@xmm.vilspa.esa.es>
  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

---792524324-1894124889-1113984955=:21376
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

Maria, sorry about so many follow-ups, but here is another one...

I just realized that I probably have a problem with MOS2 as well.

For MOS1, to align my image with the UHB MOS1 image, I have to 
rotate an XY image and flip a DET image. For MOS2, I have to ROTATE a DET 
image and FLIP a XY image. When I said that my images for MOS2 were 
consistent with the UHB images I meant that if I ROTATE my MOS2 DET image 
by 90 degrees clockwise, it aligns with the UHB chip geometry and my 
DETX, DETY axes align with those shown in the UHB MOS2 image.

However, I would assume that MOS1 and MOS2 should be presented in a 
similar way in the UHB, that is, the MOS2 image is also in XY coordinates 
with the PA=0. Then I would expect that I would have to FLIP my MOS2 DET 
image to align it with the UHB image, just like in the case of MOS1. 
Confusing...

I attach two MOS2 images similar to the MOS1 images I sent you earlier.

Thanks,
Igor
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Reply 2

Resend
From: Maria Santos-Lleo <xmmhelp@xmm.vilspa.esa.es>
To: igor@sai.msu.ru
Subject: Re: EPIC CCD numbering (PR#17583)
Date: Wed Apr 20 12:04:18 2005
Dear Igor, 

After reading your e-mails and seeing your figures, I think 
I understand what was causing so much trouble. I also got a bit 
confused by your e-mail and my first answer was not completely 
right. It is true that MOS1 figure is as in sky coordinates, 
and as I explained before, but the MOS2 and PN are different, 
so please forget previous explanation. 

In any case, I can confirm that the DETX and DETY coordinate 
systems shown in the Users' Handbook are CORRECT for all EPIC 
instruments: MOS1, MOS2 and PN. MOS2 is rotated with regard 
to MOS1, as explained in the figure caption, to show that they are 
orthogonally aligned. 

So your question is probably now: why my MOS1 figure in 
detector coordinates does not agree with the figure in 
the Users' Handbook. But the answer is: both do agree !. 
For instance CCD=4 is the top right CCD in both figures or
CCD=7 is the bottom left in both. 

I think the confusion comes from the point that you are trying 
to identify the CCDs by comparing the asymetries in both 
figures, i.e. the misalignements of the CCDs relative to 
each other, right ?. To be honest I do not think the person 
who did the figure had ever though that the figures were going to 
be checked like this. I think he first made the figure and 
then later on he overlaid the CCD numbers and axes as if the 
CCDs were symetrical !. 

I would suggest that to identify the CCDs you plot them 
separately. This can probably be done with any software that
deals with fits files, since the information is in the fits file, 
for instance it can be done either with SAS (xmmselect) or with ds9
(select "Binning Parameters" and then as "Bin Filter" 
write "ccdnr=4"). If you do this you will realize that indeed
in the figure you sent to me the CCD4 corresponds to the upper 
right CCD as in the UHB. 

In summary: the detector axis orientations and the CCD numbers
shown in the UHB figures are correct for all MOS1, MOS2 and PN.
Nevertheless, a safe way to identify the CCD numbers is to select 
them one by one and plot them

Hope this helps and sorry for the confusion the figures in the 
UHB may have caused . 

With best regards

Maria


Followup 5

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:29:44 +0400 (MSD)
From: Igor Antokhin <igor@sai.msu.ru>
Subject: Re: EPIC CCD numbering (PR#17583)
To: Maria Santos-Lleo <xmmhelp@xmm.vilspa.esa.es>
Dear Maria,

thank you very much for clarifying the issue.

> I think the confusion comes from the point that you are trying
> to identify the CCDs by comparing the asymetries in both
> figures, i.e. the misalignements of the CCDs relative to
> each other, right ?.

Well, no. At first, I just plotted the MOS1, MOS2 and PN images 
and did exactly what you say - identified the CCDs by their location not 
paying attention to the misalignements of the CCDs. I have 5 data sets, 
and doing this for the second one, I noticed that my MOS1 image seemed to 
be misaligned relative to the UHB image. We all know that bugs do exist in 
the SAS and I even found a couple of them myself earlier. So the 
misalignment was an alert I could not ignore. Good to know that 
everything is ok with the CCD numbering. Still you would agree that there 
may be a similar confusion in the future so it would be good to replace 
the UHB images by their versions more realistically showing the actual 
images produced by the SAS.

> To be honest I do not think the person
> who did the figure had ever though that the figures were going to
> be checked like this.

Well, as I said, I have already had some problems with the SAS which 
required a lot of work to be redone so now I am trying to be very 
carefull with even small details...

Thanks again,
Igor



Reply 3

Resend
From: Maria Santos-Lleo <xmmhelp@xmm.vilspa.esa.es>
To: igor@sai.msu.ru
Subject: Re: EPIC CCD numbering (PR#17583)
Date: Wed Apr 20 13:13:10 2005
Dear Igor, 

I am happy to hear that everything is clear now. 

We have taken note of your suggestions on the need to improve
the figures in the UHB. We will try our best to do new 
figures for the next update, to be issued probably this 
summer. 

I hope SAS is more stable now and you do not find so many 
errors as before

Thanks for your suggestions and best regards

Maria




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